Modern Greek romanization help needed

[Linda Ballinger]

Thanks for all the help with Japanese.

I also have a Modern Greek translation of The Time Traveler's Wife to
catalog. I'm a bit more confident of this romanization but would be
grateful for a double check.

Title: Oi gynaikes toy taxideyte [the text has an acute over the "i"
in the second word, and there should be a macron over the "e" in the
last word]

Author: Odrei Niphenegker [the text has an umlaut over the "i" in the
first name]

I'm a little uncertain of the the author's first name (ONTREI, as best
I can render it here). Looking at the LC tables, the combination of
"NT" is transliterated as "D" only when it begins a word. Since the
beginning is a vowel, can I still use "D"? It better replicates the
sound of "Audrey", anyway. At least this time I've been able to
confirm my romanization of the translator's name and publisher against
other works in OCLC.

Once again, any help would be much appreciated.
---
Linda Ballinger
Principal Cataloging Librarian
Newberry Library
ballingerl-***@public.gmane.org

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[Dan Clinton]

Audrey Niffenegger in English.

On 8/29/08, Linda Ballinger <linda.ballinger-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Thanks for all the help with Japanese.
>
> I also have a Modern Greek translation of The Time Traveler's Wife to
> catalog. I'm a bit more confident of this romanization but would be
> grateful for a double check.
>
> Title: Oi gynaikes toy taxideyte [the text has an acute over the "i"
> in the second word, and there should be a macron over the "e" in the
> last word]
>
> Author: Odrei Niphenegker [the text has an umlaut over the "i" in the
> first name]
>
> I'm a little uncertain of the the author's first name (ONTREI, as best
> I can render it here). Looking at the LC tables, the combination of
> "NT" is transliterated as "D" only when it begins a word. Since the
> beginning is a vowel, can I still use "D"? It better replicates the
> sound of "Audrey", anyway. At least this time I've been able to
> confirm my romanization of the translator's name and publisher against
> other works in OCLC.
>
> Once again, any help would be much appreciated.
> ---
> Linda Ballinger
> Principal Cataloging Librarian
> Newberry Library
> ballingerl-***@public.gmane.org
>
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--
Dan Clinton
US Census Bureau Library
Washington, DC

"A well-read fool is the most pestilent of blockheads." --Leszczynski Stanislaus

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[Pochi, Alan]

Linda,

I would think th romanization should be Hoi gynaikes [I assume a macron
over the e] tou taxideute

Rendering Audrey Niffenegger into (and then back from) Greek is
problematic, because of some pronunciation quirks in modern Greek which
manifest themselves in "Hellenization," and then in our "Romanization"
;-)

The author's name does romanize literally as Ontrei (modern Greek
pronounces nt as d; the delta is pronounced like soft th and NT (that is
nu tau) doesn't occur in initial position in "Greek"--it's used to
indicate that the sound is D; in the surname th gk is used to render gg
(in modern Greek, gg would end up "ng g"

The problem is letter by letter (or usual phonetic) romanization has
problems with specific clusters that occur in specific cases...often
fails to take into account v

Hope this isn't too much more than you needed...

Alan Pochi
Cataloger
Austin (TX) Public Library
512-974-7395
Alan.Pochi-***@public.gmane.org


>
> Title: Oi gynaikes toy taxideyte [the text has an acute over the "i"
> in the second word, and there should be a macron over the "e"
> in the last word]
>
> Author: Odrei Niphenegker [the text has an umlaut over the
> "i" in the first name]
>
> I'm a little uncertain of the the author's first name
> (ONTREI, as best I can render it here). Looking at the LC
> tables, the combination of "NT" is transliterated as "D" only
> when it begins a word. Since the beginning is a vowel, can I
> still use "D"? It better replicates the sound of "Audrey",
> anyway. At least this time I've been able to confirm my
> romanization of the translator's name and publisher against
> other works in OCLC.
>

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[Tim Spalding]

For what it's worth, the Index Translationum, based on MARC records,
but who knows whose, transliterates it as:

Niffenegger, Audrey: Ī gynaikes tou taxideutī [Greek, Modern (1453-)]
/ Mpelika Koumparelī / Athīna: Psychogios [Greece], 2005. 466 p.
English: The time traveller's wife
http://databases.unesco.org/xtrans/a/openisis.a?a=Niffenegger&stxt_1=&stxt_2=&stxt_3=&sl=&l=&c=&pla=&pub=&tr=&e=&udc=&d=&from=&to=&tie=and

The IT agrees with the modern Gk. pronunciation better, except that
taxideuti should be taxidefti. But the transliteration rules probably
differ in some way that's important, and if they are consistently
applied, then the IT may be wrong.

Tim

On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Pochi, Alan
<***@ci.austin.tx.us> wrote:
> Linda,
>
> I would think th romanization should be Hoi gynaikes [I assume a macron
> over the e] tou taxideute
>
> Rendering Audrey Niffenegger into (and then back from) Greek is
> problematic, because of some pronunciation quirks in modern Greek which
> manifest themselves in "Hellenization," and then in our "Romanization"
> ;-)
>
> The author's name does romanize literally as Ontrei (modern Greek
> pronounces nt as d; the delta is pronounced like soft th and NT (that is
> nu tau) doesn't occur in initial position in "Greek"--it's used to
> indicate that the sound is D; in the surname th gk is used to render gg
> (in modern Greek, gg would end up "ng g"
>
> The problem is letter by letter (or usual phonetic) romanization has
> problems with specific clusters that occur in specific cases...often
> fails to take into account v
>
> Hope this isn't too much more than you needed...
>
> Alan Pochi
> Cataloger
> Austin (TX) Public Library
> 512-974-7395
> ***@ci.austin.tx.us
>
>
>>
>> Title: Oi gynaikes toy taxideyte [the text has an acute over the "i"
>> in the second word, and there should be a macron over the "e"
>> in the last word]
>>
>> Author: Odrei Niphenegker [the text has an umlaut over the
>> "i" in the first name]
>>
>> I'm a little uncertain of the the author's first name
>> (ONTREI, as best I can render it here). Looking at the LC
>> tables, the combination of "NT" is transliterated as "D" only
>> when it begins a word. Since the beginning is a vowel, can I
>> still use "D"? It better replicates the sound of "Audrey",
>> anyway. At least this time I've been able to confirm my
>> romanization of the translator's name and publisher against
>> other works in OCLC.
>>
>
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>
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--
Check out my library at http://www.librarythi

[Jennifer MacDonald]

Linda,

There were proposed changes to Greek romanization a few years ago, which
LC decided not to make: <http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/greekrom.pdf>.
This would have changed some of the romanization below, which is based
on the current rules:
<http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/romanization/greek.pdf>.

This is tricky to do without seeing the Greek, but I'll try to add a bit
to Alan's explanation:

If I remember correctly, the definite article in modern Greek doesn't
have a rough breathing (check to see whether there's something that
looks like a single opening quotation mark over the [iota] in the first
word -- if there is, that is called "rough breathing" and you begin the
romanized word with an "h") -- so the title should be Oi gynaikes tou
taxideute (the upsilon becomes "u" in diphthongs)

The information about breathing marks is at the bottom of the first page
of the ALA Greek romanization table, the information about the upsilon
is next to the lower case [upsilon].

In the author's surname, are the last four letters of the name
[gamma][kappa][epsilon][rho]? Then it should be romanized as Niphenenker
-- in the romanization table, this is shown as (n before medial [gamma,
etc.]) -- medial just means in the middle of a word, rather than at the
beginning of a word.

Just as an extra explanation -- the dieresis (which looks like an
umlaut) over the last letter of the author's first name just means that
it doesn't form a diphthong with the "e" -- its omission is noted in
"Note 2" in the romanization table.

I hope this helps!

Jennifer MacDonald


Pochi, Alan wrote:
> Linda,
>
> I would think th romanization should be Hoi gynaikes [I assume a macron
> over the e] tou taxideute
>
> Rendering Audrey Niffenegger into (and then back from) Greek is
> problematic, because of some pronunciation quirks in modern Greek which
> manifest themselves in "Hellenization," and then in our "Romanization"
> ;-)
>
> The author's name does romanize literally as Ontrei (modern Greek
> pronounces nt as d; the delta is pronounced like soft th and NT (that is
> nu tau) doesn't occur in initial position in "Greek"--it's used to
> indicate that the sound is D; in the surname th gk is used to render gg
> (in modern Greek, gg would end up "ng g"
>
> The problem is letter by letter (or usual phonetic) romanization has
> problems with specific clusters that occur in specific cases...often
> fails to take into account v
>
> Hope this isn't too much more than you needed...
>
> Alan Pochi
> Cataloger
> Austin (TX) Public Library
> 512-974-7395
> Alan.Pochi-***@public.gmane.org
>
>
>
>> Title: Oi gynaikes toy taxideyte [the text has an acute over the "i"
>> in the second word, and there should be a macron over the "e"
>> in the last word]
>>
>> Author: Odrei Niphenegker [the text has an umlaut over the
>> "i" in the first name]
>>
>> I'm a little uncertain of the the author's first name
>> (ONTREI, as best I can render it here). Looking at the LC
>> tables, the combination of "NT" is transliterated as "D" only
>> when it begins a word. Since the beginning is a vowel, can I
>> still use "D"? It better replicates the sound of "Audrey",
>> anyway. At least this time I've been able to confirm my
>> romanization of the translator's name and publisher against
>> other works in OCLC.
>>
>>
>
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--
Jennifer S. MacDonald
Senior Assistant Librarian and Coordinator,
Special Collections Cataloging and Processing
University of Delaware Library
Newark, DE 19717-5267
[phone]

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[Jennifer MacDonald]

Dear all,

I have correction on my message of yesterday, where I wrote

<snip>

"If I remember correctly, the definite article in modern Greek doesn't
have a rough breathing (check to see whether there's something that
looks like a single opening quotation mark over the [iota] in the first
word -- if there is, that is called "rough breathing" and you begin the
romanized word with an "h") -- so the title should be Oi gynaikes tou
taxideute (the upsilon becomes "u" in diphthongs)"

<snip>

Despite the lack of the rough breathing in the Mod. Greek, you ARE
supposed to supply it, so the beginning of the title should be "Hoi
gynaikes.." Practice vs. rules get tricky sometimes -- this is why the
proposed changes were so controversial! That'll teach me to stop lurking.

Blushing furiously,

Jennifer

--
Jennifer S. MacDonald
Senior Assistant Librarian and Coordinator,
Special Collections Cataloging and Processing
University of Delaware Library
Newark, DE 19717-5267
[phone]

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[Schutt, Misha]

Jennifer MacDonald wrote:
> Despite the lack of the rough breathing in the Mod. Greek, you ARE
> supposed to supply it, ...

It's annoying that LC forces us to "correct" the spelling reform of
1982, when they eliminated a mark that hasn't been pronounced for a
thousand years. This particular requirement forces the transcriber to
go to a pre-1982 dictionary to double-check any word beginning with a
vowel (other than y, which always has the rough breathing)! This
violates the general principle that when we're transcribing, we should
transcribe what's there. I know that Rule 1.0G asks us to add missing
diacritics to a transcription in accordance with the standard
orthography of the language, but this is a case where the standard
orthography has officially changed.

But then, what's one more little annoyance from LC?

Misha Schutt
Catalog Librarian
Burbank (Calif.) Public Library
[phone]
mschutt-***@public.gmane.org

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