Changes in RDA

[Gene Fieg]

I haven't read through all the changes, but looking at the musical section,
I noticed that the definite article is being used in authorized access
point. Not only with regard to foreign languages, but English as well.
Why? What do now do in a MARC record in a X00 record where we have $t
starting with a definite article? I checked the NAF for Fledermaus. So
far, the article "Die" has not been added.

I also saw the examples for Dante's Purgatory and Paradise have been
crossed out, but there is no instructions, as there are in similar
instructions, as to how to construct/record those titles by Dante.
--
Gene Fieg
Claremont School of Theology
gfieg-***@public.gmane.org

Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not
represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information
or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that
of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School
of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a
courtesy for information only.

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[Adam L. Schiff]

The examples are simply being changed to match the main instructions in
RDA 6.2.1.7.

6.2.1.7 Initial Articles

When recording the title, include an initial article, if present.

EXAMPLE

The invisible man

Der seidene Faden

Eine kleine Nachtmusik

La vida plena

The most of P.G. Wodehouse

Following this main instruction, there is an alternative to omit an
initial article "unless the title for a work is to be accessed under that
article (e.g., a title that begins with the name of a person or place)."

LC practice/PCC practice (and Anglo-American practice in general) is to
apply the alternative. However, examples throughout RDA illustrate the
basic instructions, not the alternative or exceptions. When 6.2.1.7 was
revised to make the basic instruction include initial articles, the
examples throughout RDA were not changed at the same time. But they are
being changed now. PCC and U.S. cataloging practice will continue to
follow the alternative instruction in RDA though.

Adam Schiff

**************************************
* Adam L. Schiff *
* Principal Cataloger *
* University of Washington Libraries *
* Box 352900 *
* Seattle, WA 98195-2900 *
* [phone] *
* [phone] fax *
* ***@u.washington.edu *
**************************************

Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 12:25:38 -0700
Subject: [RDA-L] Changes in RDA
I haven't read through all the changes, but looking at the musical section,
I noticed that the definite article is being used in authorized access
point. Not only with regard to foreign languages, but English as well.
Why? What do now do in a MARC record in a X00 record where we have $t
starting with a definite article? I checked the NAF for Fledermaus. So
far, the article "Die" has not been added.
I also saw the examples for Dante's Purgatory and Paradise have been
crossed out, but there is no instructions, as there are in similar
instructions, as to how to construct/record those titles by Dante.
--
Gene Fieg
Claremont School of Theology
Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not
represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information
or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that
of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School
of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a
courtesy for information only.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Adam L. Schiff
Principal Cataloger
University of Washington Libraries
Box 352900
Seattle, WA 98195-2900
[phone]
[phone] fax
***@u.washington.edu
http://faculty.washington.edu/~aschiff
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[Patricia Sayre-McCoy]

Including an initial article does not mean coding for it so the 245 indicator can still be set to skip the initial article for catalog searches. Otherwise we will have a lot of really confused patrons who can find old titles but not new ones.
Pat

Patricia Sayre-McCoy
Head, Law Cataloging and Serials
D'Angelo Law Library
1121 E. 60th Street
Chicago IL 60637
p-mccoy-t4+EzPmVLfD2fBVCVOL8/***@public.gmane.org
773-667-6902 (w)
773-702-2889 (fax)

-----Original Message-----
From: Adam L. Schiff [mailto:***@u.washington.edu]
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 2:46 PM
To: rda-l-UMHSZnndS/***@public.gmane.org
Cc: autocat
Subject: [RDA-L] Re: Changes in RDA

The examples are simply being changed to match the main instructions in RDA 6.2.1.7.

6.2.1.7 Initial Articles

When recording the title, include an initial article, if present.

EXAMPLE

The invisible man

Der seidene Faden

Eine kleine Nachtmusik

La vida plena

The most of P.G. Wodehouse

Following this main instruction, there is an alternative to omit an initial article "unless the title for a work is to be accessed under that article (e.g., a title that begins with the name of a person or place)."

LC practice/PCC practice (and Anglo-American practice in general) is to apply the alternative. However, examples throughout RDA illustrate the basic instructions, not the alternative or exceptions. When 6.2.1.7 was revised to make the basic instruction include initial articles, the examples throughout RDA were not changed at the same time. But they are being changed now. PCC and U.S. cataloging practice will continue to follow the alternative instruction in RDA though.

Adam Schiff

**************************************
* Adam L. Schiff *
* Principal Cataloger *
* University of Washington Libraries *
* Box 352900 *
* Seattle, WA 98195-2900 *
* [phone] *
* [phone] fax *
* ***@u.washington.edu *
**************************************

Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 12:25:38 -0700
Subject: [RDA-L] Changes in RDA
I haven't read through all the changes, but looking at the musical
section, I noticed that the definite article is being used in
authorized access point. Not only with regard to foreign languages, but English as well.
Why? What do now do in a MARC record in a X00 record where we have $t
starting with a definite article? I checked the NAF for Fledermaus.
So far, the article "Die" has not been added.
I also saw the examples for Dante's Purgatory and Paradise have been
crossed out, but there is no instructions, as there are in similar
instructions, as to how to construct/record those titles by Dante.
--
Gene Fieg
Claremont School of Theology
Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not
represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the
information or content contained in this forwarded email. The
forwarded email is that of the original sender and does not represent
the views of Claremont School of Theology or Claremont Lincoln
University. It has been forwarded as a courtesy for information only.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Adam L. Schiff
Principal Cataloger
University of Washington Libraries
Box 352900
Seattle, WA 98195-2900
[phone]
[phone] fax
***@u.washington.edu
http://faculty.washington.edu/~aschiff
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[James Weinheimer]

On 10/9/2014 9:46 PM, Adam L. Schiff wrote:
<snip>

Post by Adam L. Schiff
The examples are simply being changed to match the main instructions in
RDA 6.2.1.7.
6.2.1.7 Initial Articles
When recording the title, include an initial article, if present.
EXAMPLE
The invisible man
Der seidene Faden
Eine kleine Nachtmusik
La vida plena
The most of P.G. Wodehouse
Following this main instruction, there is an alternative to omit an
initial article "unless the title for a work is to be accessed under
that article (e.g., a title that begins with the name of a person or
place)."
LC practice/PCC practice (and Anglo-American practice in general) is to
apply the alternative. However, examples throughout RDA illustrate the
basic instructions, not the alternative or exceptions. When 6.2.1.7 was
revised to make the basic instruction include initial articles, the
examples throughout RDA were not changed at the same time. But they are
being changed now. PCC and U.S. cataloging practice will continue to
follow the alternative instruction in RDA though.

</snip>

This is one of those perennial issues that I hoped would more or less
disappear. Some cultures do not file under initial articles but others
do. In any case, the purpose of omitting initial articles is for
browsing left-anchored text (so that you don't look for "The Swiss
Family Robinson" under "T") but I don't know how many users do that any
more. I haven't seen users do it. I don't do it. I confess that even I,
when I look up names or titles, I just throw words together, in any
order that comes to me, e.g. "finn mark twain". I've seen lots of people
do that and I recently discovered this type of searching even has been
considered a type of language with names such as "Searchese" or even
"Caveman" (which I like!).

The current trends in searching are more toward "conversational search"
which is based on natural language. See:
http://allthingsd.com/20130314/how-search-is-evolving-finally-beyond-caveman-queries/
There have been some impressive advances. Jeopardy's Watson was simply
incredible but now these methods are being introduced into everybody's
smartphones and browsers--for free.
http://searchengineland.com/google-upgrades-conversational-search-mobile-apps-205535
and Google Chrome does it now.

From my own experience of the Google conversational search, it is
simply bad and nowhere near as good as Watson, but who knows where it
will be in just 5 years from now?

In any case, search technology is evolving and the public will become
more and more accustomed to those methods, while our traditional methods
will look increasingly strange. As a consequence, these debates whether
to add an initial article or not are becoming obsolete and irrelevant to
what people really do, and is similar to arguing how IBM punched cards
should be used today. We should be adapting our methods to the public
instead of expecting them to do left-anchored text browses, eliminating
(or not) initial articles. That is a remnant of days long past.

Linked data means that everything will be based on URIs and that using
text for authority purposes is going away, e.g. this one for Swiss
Family Robinson which has one link but all kinds of forms
http://www.viaf.org/viaf/176999342/#Wyss,_Johann_David,_1743-1818._|_Schweizerische_Robinson.
There is also this from dbpedia which the public would possibly find
more useful http://dbpedia.org/page/The_Swiss_Family_Robinson

Once the links are input (if that ever starts to happen!) the task will
then be to match a searcher interested in this title to these--and
other--links, plus making everything coherent and relatively easy to use.

I think that is when things will become interesting!

James Weinheimer weinheimer.jim.l-***@public.gmane.org First Thus
http://blog.jweinheimer.net First Thus Facebook Page
https://www.facebook.com/FirstThus Cooperative Cataloging Rules
http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules/ Cataloging Matters
Podcasts http://blog.jweinheimer.net/cataloging-matters-podcasts

[delay +30 days]

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[Robert Mead-Donaldson]

doh..!

should have read the posts first......mea culpa...


ub

Post by Patricia Sayre-McCoy
Including an initial article does not mean coding for it so the 245
indicat=
or can still be set to skip the initial article for catalog searches.
Other=
wise we will have a lot of really confused patrons who can find old titles
=
but not new ones.
Pat
Patricia Sayre-McCoy
Head, Law Cataloging and Serials
D'Angelo Law Library
1121 E. 60th Street
Chicago IL 60637
773-667-6902 (w)
773-702-2889 (fax)
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 2:46 PM
Cc: autocat
Subject: [RDA-L] Re: Changes in RDA
The examples are simply being changed to match the main instructions in
RDA=
6.2.1.7.
6.2.1.7 Initial Articles
When recording the title, include an initial article, if present.
EXAMPLE
The invisible man
Der seidene Faden
Eine kleine Nachtmusik
La vida plena
The most of P.G. Wodehouse
Following this main instruction, there is an alternative to omit an
initial=
article "unless the title for a work is to be accessed under that article
=
(e.g., a title that begins with the name of a person or place)."
LC practice/PCC practice (and Anglo-American practice in general) is to
app=
ly the alternative. However, examples throughout RDA illustrate the basic
=
instructions, not the alternative or exceptions. When 6.2.1.7 was revised
=
to make the basic instruction include initial articles, the examples
throug=
hout RDA were not changed at the same time. But they are being changed
now=
. PCC and U.S. cataloging practice will continue to follow the
alternative=
instruction in RDA though.
Adam Schiff
**************************************
* Adam L. Schiff *=20
* Principal Cataloger *
* University of Washington Libraries *
* Box 352900 *
* Seattle, WA 98195-2900 *
* [phone] *=20
* [phone] fax *
**************************************

Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 12:25:38 -0700
Subject: [RDA-L] Changes in RDA
=20
I haven't read through all the changes, but looking at the musical=20
section, I noticed that the definite article is being used in=20
authorized access point. Not only with regard to foreign languages, but

=
English as well.

Why? What do now do in a MARC record in a X00 record where we have $t=20
starting with a definite article? I checked the NAF for Fledermaus. =20
So far, the article "Die" has not been added.
I also saw the examples for Dante's Purgatory and Paradise have been=20
crossed out, but there is no instructions, as there are in similar=20
instructions, as to how to construct/record those titles by Dante.
--
Gene Fieg
Claremont School of Theology
Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not=20
represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the=20
information or content contained in this forwarded email. The=20
forwarded email is that of the original sender and does not represent=20
the views of Claremont School of Theology or Claremont Lincoln=20
University. It has been forwarded as a courtesy for information only.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Adam L. Schiff
Principal Cataloger
University of Washington Libraries
Box 352900
Seattle, WA 98195-2900
[phone]
[phone] fax
http://faculty.washington.edu/~aschiff
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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[Elise Wong]

I am a little confused on interpreting RDA 6.2.1.7.

Is the basic instructions applying only for a title which is to be accessed under that article? What about regular titles with insignificant articles? If I am following basic instructions, should I just include initial articles in all cases and code the 245 2nd indicator depending on how I want the title to be indexed?

Thanks, Elise @ Saint Mary's College of California

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[Stephen Early]

The rule is about recording initial articles, not about filing by initial articles. Keep doing what you're doing (If first word is "The" still use MARC 245 second indicator 4 in most cases, etc.)

Stephen T. Early
Cataloger
Center for Research Libraries
6050 S. Kenwood
Chicago, IL 60637
773-955-4545 x326
***@crl.edu
CRL website: www.crl.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: AUTOCAT [mailto:***@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU] On Behalf Of Elise Wong
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2014 9:51 AM
To: ***@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
Subject: Re: [ACAT] [RDA-L] Re: Changes in RDA

I am a little confused on interpreting RDA 6.2.1.7.

Is the basic instructions applying only for a title which is to be accessed under that article? What about regular titles with insignificant articles? If I am following basic instructions, should I just include initial articles in all cases and code the 245 2nd indicator depending on how I want the title to be indexed?

Thanks, Elise @ Saint Mary's College of California
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[Stephen Early]

And omit initial articles entirely if recording a Work title in 130 and 240, assuming you're following the 6.1.2.7 alternative as does LC and PCC.
(again: keep doing what you're doing.)

Steve

-----Original Message-----

The rule is about recording initial articles, not about filing by initial articles. Keep doing what you're doing (If first word is "The" still use MARC 245 second indicator 4 in most cases, etc.)

Stephen T. Early
Cataloger
Center for Research Libraries
6050 S. Kenwood
Chicago, IL 60637
773-955-4545 x326
***@crl.edu
CRL website: www.crl.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: AUTOCAT [mailto:***@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU] On Behalf Of Elise Wong
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2014 9:51 AM
To: ***@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
Subject: Re: [ACAT] [RDA-L] Re: Changes in RDA

I am a little confused on interpreting RDA 6.2.1.7.

Is the basic instructions applying only for a title which is to be accessed under that article? What about regular titles with insignificant articles? If I am following basic instructions, should I just include initial articles in all cases and code the 245 2nd indicator depending on how I want the title to be indexed?

Thanks, Elise @ Saint Mary's College of California
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[Robert Mead-Donaldson]

Always a situation with German, Des Teufels General for one example, and
who could forget Eine kleine Nachtmusik...?



uncle bob

Post by Gene Fieg
I haven't read through all the changes, but looking at the musical section,
I noticed that the definite article is being used in authorized access
point. Not only with regard to foreign languages, but English as well.
Why? What do now do in a MARC record in a X00 record where we have $t
starting with a definite article? I checked the NAF for Fledermaus. So
far, the article "Die" has not been added.
I also saw the examples for Dante's Purgatory and Paradise have been
crossed out, but there is no instructions, as there are in similar
instructions, as to how to construct/record those titles by Dante.
--
Gene Fieg
Claremont School of Theology
Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not
represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information
or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that
of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School
of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a
courtesy for information only.
--
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[Marian Veld]

Patricia Sayre-McCoy wrote:
"Including an initial article does not mean coding for it so the 245
indicator can still be set to skip the initial article for catalog
searches. Otherwise we will have a lot of really confused patrons who can
find old titles but not new ones.
Pat"

Not necessarily since most catalogs ignore our coding and use stop word
lists instead. Not to mention that keyword searches (which I believe are
used vastly more often than browse searches) would still find those titles.
--
Marian Veld
Comstock Township Library
Michigan

Currently reading: A church called graffitti by Taylor Field

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